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Forum:How to handle post-Red Wedding Great Houses
In the aftermath of the Red Wedding, we've had a series of confused edits from newcomers not entirely certain of how to handle the current status of various factions. Trying not to spoil things, these points must be made: Walder Frey is not yet the Lord of Riverrun, though he thinks he is. Brynden Tully is expressly said to have escaped - he wasn't even at the Red Wedding in the books (I think they just wanted to lull us into a false sense of security at the wedding). In the books, after the Red Wedding most of the Riverlords realize they cannot possibly resist the Lannisters anymore and surrender (they've taken major losses already, the war happened on their own territory so most of their crops are burned-out in raids, and without the Northerners their numbers are too few, as well as that they don't have any strategic defenses like mountains or the Neck to hold off the combined Lannister-Tyrell armies). However, Riverrun and Raventree Hall continue to hold out against the Lannisters out of pride: they'll never submit to the monster Joffrey, or the Lannisters and their allies who killed Ned Stark and carried out the Red Wedding. Riverrun soon becomes besieged, with Brynden leading the defense, but the Lannisters don't try to storm the castle because time is on their side and they don't need to waste the soldiers. So the Siege of Riverrun now (the mid-point of book 3) will last well into book 4, as will the siege of Raventree Hall. Compare to how Petyr Baelish acted like he was lord of Harrenhal even though he never set foot there, and indeed it became occupied by Northern armies (as Varys points out). Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish was named Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, as part of being rewarded with Harrenhal. This despite the fact that he's a minor lord from the Vale of Arryn; he never subsequently even sets foot in Harrenhal. Even so, characters point out within the books that he is nominally Lord Paramount of the Riverlands: the Freys, in particular, are insulted by this as they had assumed they would be rewarded by being named Lord Paramount of the Riverlands - but the Lannisters now want to distance themselves from the Freys because the entire realm considers them despicable for breaking guest right. So they give them the reward of promising them Riverrun, but it remains in the hands of the Tullys. In the books, Walder himself isn't even named titular Lord of Riverrun, but his second son Emmon Frey is (who is married to Tywin Lannister's sister Genna Lannister). Littlefinger becomes Lord Regent of the Vale for marrying Lysa Arryn, which as Pycelle points out, makings him functionally the Lord Paramount of the Vale as well. To be honest, Littlefinger does nothing to administrate the Riverlands and basically just leaves them to rot, as the chaos of the war has despoiled the Riverlands and filled it with brigands (former soldiers who deserted or commoners who survived by stealing and raiding). He only used the title "Lord Paramount of the Riverlands" as a token gesture to gain enough prestige to marry Lysa Arryn; it was a stepping stone. The Boltons are explicitly named Wardens of the North. I also think that for the moment they should be considered the acting Lords Paramount of the North. Tywin explicitly says he plans on them holding these titles for years, until such time as Tyrion fathers a child with Sansa, the last (known) heir to House Stark and the north. Given that no one calls Tyrion "Lord Paramount" and he does nothing to administer the North yet, I think this title should be given to Roose Bolton on the wiki for the moment. "Great House" is an informal term used for the major Houses which control large regions of the continent. Up until now, it has been synonymous with "Lord Paramount". House Bolton became a Great House due to their new rule of the North. House Baelish also got up-jumped to "Great House" status, nominally for rule of the Riverlands though in practice for marrying into House Arryn. House Frey, while not named Lords Paramount for the moment, are still now considered the de facto pre-eminent noble family in the Riverlands, and thus should also be promoted to Great House status (i.e. being promised Riverrun, though technically Baelish still holds the Lord Paramount title). In short, my conclusions are: *House Bolton, House Baelish, and House Frey should be added to the list of Great Houses *Roose Bolton is to be treated as not only the new Warden of the North, but the new Lord Paramount of the North. While Tywin intends to assign these positions to Tyrion in the future (when he has a child with Sansa), this hasn't happened yet, so it's only hypothetical, thus Tyrion's page should not include these titles. *Petyr Baelish remains Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, the Freys haven't been rewarded with this title (the books make this clear; hopefully next season will highlight this snub). *Given that they haven't introduced Emmon Frey yet we should stick with Walder Frey; even so, they intend to reward Walder with Riverrun, much as Littlefinger was nominally "Lord of Harrenhal" in early Season 3 despite the castle falling into enemy hands. The Tully garrison at Riverrun under Brynden's command don't agree. So I guess we'd say "Lord of Riverrun (disputed)", if we say anything at all. Does everyone agree?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:45, June 26, 2013 (UTC) ::I don't think House Frey should be treated as a Great House, only Houses Bolton and Baelish, with the Freys now being sworn to Harrenhal instead of Riverrun--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:06, June 26, 2013 (UTC) :::Thinking on it yes, if they answer to Baelish - albeit nominally - they can't be a Great House anymore than the Hightowers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:02, June 26, 2013 (UTC) The question has been raised if we should consider House Baelish to be a "Great House" yet on the grounds that we haven't seen him marry Lysa Arryn...yet. This does happen in the books (mild spoiler). However, he is explicitly stated to be planning this in episode 3 of Season 3, and even if that hasn't happened yet, the same episode identifies him as lord of Harrenhal and thus elevated in social standing. The question is thus about where Season 3 cut off from the book: is Baelish a Lord Paramount yet? They discussed this as their intention, so I figure we might as well put it in.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:11, June 26, 2013 (UTC) :Besides House Baelish becomes a Great House not by Petyr's marriage to Lysa, but by being named Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:14, June 26, 2013 (UTC) ::Well in that case I think we should stick with House Baelish being a new Great House.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:15, June 26, 2013 (UTC) Meanwhile, how should we handle Riverrun? "Disputed"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:19, June 26, 2013 (UTC) Riverrun: * House Tully (de facto) * House Frey (de jure) I hope we get Emmon Frey next season --Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:58, June 26, 2013 (UTC)